It Is Out Of Control

MUBARAK: The U.S. cannot just take its hands off. It has to work to narrow the gap [between the Palestinians] and the Israelis.

Very, very tense. Everyone was very upset about the U.S. veto [of a U.N. resolution to send international observers to Palestinian areas]… I sent the U.S. a message, “Please don’t veto now.” They did, and the [Arab delegations] changed resolutions. We couldn’t prevent it. As regards boycotting, this will not concern Egypt or Jordan.

Last Tuesday I told Arafat, “we are in a critical position and so are you. Today or tomorrow, you should publicly ask your people to stop violence and start negotiations. Say it on TV.” That evening, he told me there was a warning to the inhabitants of Hebron to evacuate. I told our chief of intelligence to contact the Israelis and ask, why are you doing this now? We didn’t receive an answer and the bombing started.

Otherwise there would have been demonstrations in the universities and then the workers would have joined in… The people were furious about the attacks and the excessive use of force by [former prime minister Ehud] Barak.

There are differences among his people. I don’t think he will accept.

I am encouraging Arafat to continue negotiations.

He can stop some, but it is out of control. I think he’s afraid to tell people to stop it while there is killing and excessive use of power.

I have to deal with him for the sake of stability. We have contacts with Sharon. He sent me three or four special envoys, and I sent him a special envoy–the chief of intelligence. Although Sharon has a bad reputation, we may reach an arrangement with him for the Palestinians… He is still forming the ideas of a peace plan. He will show it to me when it is ready.

The more you bomb him, the stronger he gets.

The Iraqi opposition you have in the U.S.–forget about it. They cannot deliver–now or after Saddam.

I’m not in a position to say a word against Saddam. He insults all the leaders of the Arab world but he’s considered as a hero now.

How can I go to Israel with the violence there?

We are not Syria. My son is not going to be the next president. Please forget about that. We’ll try to find a vice president. I’m checking many names.

I hear what I want to hear in the Arab summit. What I don’t want to hear, I just don’t.

The new administration may not have a picture of what’s going on. I’m going to tell them what I feel. Usually I have good trips to the United States. Sometimes fighting. But good fighting–without blood.

title: " It Is Out Of Control " ShowToc: true date: “2023-01-07” author: “Elizabeth Klan”

NEWSWEEK: What do you think of Bush’s idea of keeping his hands off the Middle East?

Hosni Mubarak: The United States cannot just take its hands off. It has to work to narrow the gap [between the Palestinians] and the Israelis.

How do you see the situation in the area? At the Arab summit this week, Arab leaders made hardline statements on Israel and agreed to revive the boycott office.

Very, very tense. At the summit, everyone was very upset about the U.S. veto [of a UN resolution to send international observers to Palestinian areas]. … I sent the United States a message, ‘Please don’t veto now.’ They did, and the [Arab delegations] changed resolutions. We couldn’t prevent it. As regards boycotting, this will not concern Egypt or Jordan. The king of Jordan asked me about the boycotting. I told him, ‘Don’t worry.’ Iraq was a difficult subject. The Kuwaitis want a guarantee that Iraq will not violate their borders. The Iraqis refused.

[Last week], Israel bombed the headquarters of [Yasser] Arafat’s presidential guard, Force 17, in retaliation for bombings inside Israel.

Last Tuesday , I told Arafat, ‘We are in a critical position and so are you. Today or tomorrow, you should publicly ask your people to stop violence and start negotiations. Say it on TV.’ That evening, he told me there was a warning to the inhabitants of Hebron to evacuate. I told our chief of intelligence to contact the Israelis and ask, why are you doing this now? We didn’t receive an answer and the bombing started.

Why did you withdraw your ambassador from Israel?

I withdrew him to come for consultations. I did not freeze relations… Otherwise there would have been demonstrations in the universities and then the workers would have joined in… The people were furious about the attacks and the excessive use of force by [former Prime Minister Ehud] Barak.

Will you send your ambassador back?

When negotiations start, I can send him back.

Why did the Intifada start?

Because Sharon went to the holy places guarded by 2,000 to 3,000 soldiers.

It appears that Barak made Arafat an extraordinary offer: a Palestinian state in all of Gaza, 95 percent of the West Bank, a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem and an international presence in the Jordan valley. Why didn’t he take it?

Before he went to Camp David, I told Barak, ‘Be careful. The most delicate issue which may prevent you from reaching a conclusion is the holy places… [In the end] Clinton told Arafat [to take] 95 percent or leave it.’ We found out that it was less than 90 per cent. I asked about the Western Wall of the Al Aksa mosque. [Mubarak brings out map] The Wailing Wall is about 58 meters; the wall is 485 meters. I realized that Israel would take the whole Western Wall… I said this won’t work from my point of view. We tried hard with both Arafat and Barak, even during Camp David. But Clinton was angry because he wanted me to tell Arafat to accept Israeli sovereignty over the holy places. When Clinton came here to see me on his way home from Africa, I told him, ‘Mr. President, I cannot dare to say this. Nobody in the Arab world would dare to say this. It could lead to terrorism.’ It seemed that he was told that with pressure from Mubarak and [Jordan’s] King Abdullah, Arafat would agree but he could not.

Whether it was 90 or 95 per cent it was still, in my view, a very generous offer that Barak made, and an offer that won’t come again for a long time.

Let me tell you, the most dangerous issue is not this. It’s Jerusalem. Jerusalem can stop everything.

Okay, but there were billions of dollars in international aid that would have accompanied the package. And now, what has Arafat produced for his people after all these years?

You can’t blame only Arafat. He has colleagues.

But why can’t Arafat ever take responsibility for anything?

Ask Arafat. You in America think we are controlling Arafat, which is not true.

Many in the United States now believe that Arafat never wanted a deal. Is this so?

There are differences among his people.

Couldn’t he have accepted if he wanted to?

I don’t think he will accept. Jerusalem is one reason.

But Israel needed a promise that the conflict had come to an end in order to make such major concessions. And you can’t get that promise without discussing Jerusalem and that is why Jerusalem came into play.

You cannot imagine what public opinion was like here. I had warnings: ‘Don’t ever sign anything concerning Jerusalem and the holy places.’

Would it be dangerous to your life?

They could make explosions, so many things. I received faxes from all over the Arab world as if I were going to push Arafat to accept this. I never impose anything on the Palestinians.

After six months of the Intifada, where do we go from here? Back to Oslo?

I hope they can slow it down and as soon as possible start negotiations. I am encouraging Arafat to continue negotiations.

Have you asked him to stop the violence?

He can stop some, but it is out of control.

Does he have control?

He may have control over some but not all areas. I think he’s afraid to tell people to stop it while there is killing and excessive use of power. The towns are under siege. The people are desperate; trenches are being built; no one can move from here to there. What do you expect from those people? They could commit suicide.

What is your view of the new Israeli government? Do you believe you can work with Prime Minister Sharon?

He is prime minister of Israel. I have to deal with him for the sake of stability. We have contacts with Sharon. He sent me three or four special envoys, and I sent him a special envoy- the chief of intelligence. Although Sharon has a bad reputation, we may reach an arrangement with him for the Palestinians.

Do you plan to meet with him?

No. He is still forming the ideas of a peace plan. He will show it to me when it is ready. Cooperation is no problem. There is an Israeli delegation for agriculture here now.

People in the United States are shocked by the way your media has been describing our Secretary of state and Israel since the Intifada began.

When I read that article, I apologized to the Secretary. He is a friend. Your media is irresponsible also. What about Tom Friedman’s very bad articles?

There is one difference. Our president does not appoint the editors of our papers.

A shura council, part of the parliament, appoints them.

What are the prospects for Colin Powell’s ‘smart sanctions’ on Iraq-his effort to lighten up civilian sanctions and tighten up on sales of equipment used to make weapons of mass destruction?

I kept telling the Americans, ’try to make it easy for the people in Iraq. If you don’t want to deal with the leadership, help the people. Any leader who comes to power in the future will be one of the people.’

How strong is Saddam?

The more you bomb him, the stronger he gets.

Some in the U.S. administration want to overthrow Saddam and back an opposition group of exiles, called the Iraqi National Congress.

The Iraqi opposition you have in the United States-forget about it. They cannot deliver-now or after Saddam. Any opposition group from outside the country that is known as working with the Americans is seen as traitors to the people.

Do you think Saddam is a threat to the region?

I’m not in a position to say a word against Saddam. He insults all the leaders of the Arab world but he’s considered as a hero now. The Palestinians put up pictures of Saddam. He says ‘I’m going to send forces to evacuate Israel. I’m giving one billion Euros to help the Intifada.’

Congressman Tom Lantos has called for a cutoff of military aid because he says there’s no military threat to Egypt.

Israeli Minister Avigdor Lieberman threatened us with reoccupying Sinai and attacking the Aswan High Dam. People were terrified. I told the Israelis publicly, just for people to understand, the 1967 war will never be repeated. If there will be losses here, there will be losses also in Israel. Sharon sent me a message: ‘Don’t rely on [Lieberman’s] words.’

But, nevertheless, Lantos argues there’s no threat to Egypt.

How can he say that? You never know what’s going to happen in this part of the world. Israel has nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons.

But Israel isn’t a threat to Egypt, is it?

I have no intention for war. We have a peace agreement with Israel. But we have to defend ourselves.

But Lieberman is just one member of a large cabinet. You know most Israelis don’t believe that.

I know, but such make the people suspicious. The normalization of relations and the joint ventures were working during [the late Prime Minister Yitzhak] Rabin. During Rabin there was good progress in cooperation with the Israelis. When [Former Prime Minister] Netanyahu came it start fading. When Barak came, we hoped that we could continue. But the violence between the Israelis and the Palestinians prevented it.

Why have you never visited Israel yourself?

How can I go to Israel with the violence there?

And before that?

Before Rabin’s assassination, I was making plans to visit Ezer Weizman in Beersheba. I have great relations with Ezer, and I had a very good relationship with Rabin. I know Shimon Peres very well, and Yossi Beilin. I have many good friends there. And then suddenly Rabin was assassinated. I went to his funeral.

You didn’t admire Barak as you did Rabin?

No, Rabin was a strong politician, a highly experienced man. When he was negotiating with the Palestinians before Oslo, I knew about the negotiations from Rabin. I didn’t hear from the Palestinians. He came to me in Ismailia and told me, ‘The group of Shimon Peres are negotiating secretly in Oslo with a group of Palestinians. I told them to stop until I met with you and told you.’ I told him, ‘Go ahead, that’s good. I’m ready to help.’ At every single step, Rabin used to meet with me, give me a telephone call, and either we’d meet in Taba, Alexandria, anywhere. If there was a problem, I’d invite Arafat or King Hussein. We’d discuss matters for hours and hours. He was a very good man. It’s a big loss. If Rabin had lived longer, we would have reached a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

So, Rabin had the political sense that Barak lacked.

Yes, he was a highly experienced man. He was a general-he knew what war means. He was a very good politician. And we used to be very frank with each other. Three days after he took office he met me here. He told me I would like to know your experience. And I told him every single detail- about peace between the Israelis and Palestinians, about the Jordanians and Syrians. We had long talks.

Is terrorism under control in Egypt-as compared to a few years ago?

It’s far better. We are making good progress and are strict with them. We can’t say it’s ended. It’s an international phenomenon.

How do you feel Egypt is doing in regard to developing a civil society. What about the trial of Saad Eddin Ibrahim [a notable Egyptian intellectual].

You are making a big fuss about this man. Some people consider him as a traitor. So the best thing is not to mention him. People ask, ‘Why are the Americans so concerned about Saad Ibrahim?’ We never interfere.

So you can be tried for being too close to the United States?

There was a very serious accusation against him. I told the attorney general, put it aside, because this would make a big story and very high punishment.

Everybody talks about your son, Gamal, as a possible successor to you.

We are not Syria. My son is not going to be the next president. Please forget about that.

But people do speculate about who your successor will be.

We’ll try to find a vice president. It’s difficult. I’m checking many names. [Former Egyptian President Anwar] Sadat was lucky that he found me. I didn’t want this post.

Why?

I’d been commander of the Air Force, and had worked hard all my life. When the October War finished, I was looking forward to being an ambassador in London. Sadat told me ‘I’m going to take you in the presidency.’ I was shocked. He told me, in February 1981, ‘I’m going to resign at the end of this term.’ I knew he was not going to resign. I said, ‘Mr. President, when you resign, I’ll leave the office right away.’ But suddenly the man was assassinated. I was very hesitant to accept the post. I knew the problems. I knew the situation very well. The picture was black. I couldn’t escape. It was my fate. We had no money, no currency, nothing. No electricity, no telephones, no housing, no sewage. You can’t imagine the situation. I worked hard from 1981 until now. In 1981 we had half a million telephone lines-300,000 of them were not working at all. Now, we have 7 million telephone lines, plus 2 million mobile phones. In ‘81, Cairo was about to drown in sewage. We used to have 14,000 paved roads. Now, we have about 50,000.

What was the worst problem that you faced?

The population growth.

But don’t you need to get rid of some of your socialist legislation, and privatize in order to get foreign investment?

We have privatized. Still I have a way to go. I am still working on that.

With the Middle East at such a crossroads, do you ever lose hope?

We are working with the Americans to find a way to resume negotiations. If I lost hope, I would be desperate.

But if you listen to statements from the Arab summit, it doesn’t appear hopeful.

I hear what I want to hear in the Arab summit. What I don’t want to hear, I just don’t.

You have a new U.S. administration just getting the feel …

The new administration may not have a picture of what’s going on. I’m going to tell them what I feel. Usually I have good trips to the United States. Sometimes fighting. But good fighting-without blood.